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Fangames aren't better than the Official Titles.

Jayson Jean

Jayson Jean Channel
Apr 22, 2019
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This has been a issue that's really had a sense of annoyance towards me, which is the phrase "Fangames are better than anything SEGA has ever done." Which is flat out untrue. Now an argument on how the fans can have more interesting ideas for the blue blur is something for debate, but the formal isn't. Fangames are inferior for many reasons. For one is a lack of original assets. And not just fact that the assets already belong to SEGA, many fangames often reuse many assets like levels and playstyles, with virtually no sense of a proper identity, like having level ports with the same control scheme from the game it was borrowed from,or having giant level layouts full of assets and not much of a flow going on. But I think the absolute worst of this phrase is when it's aimed towards Engines, like a literal sandbox when the player just runs around testing things for about 20 minutes. Meaning that you mind more enjoyment in a sandbox, than a full fledged game?
 

Gnidel

Spring Yard Zone
Aug 3, 2018
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I think it depends. There are fangames that I consider to be above some official games, like Sonic Before the Sequel/Sonic After the Sequel/Sonic Chrono Adventure series or Sonic Time Twisted which I consider to be better than most classics. And even official games lack originality and reuse assets these days, especially Mania which seems to have infected fangame scene with it's approach to assets reused without even recoloring them. And recoloring is a fantastic tool that can hide that something is not original.

I agree about test stages for engines and lazy ports. I think there is a noticeable disconnect between people of many talents, mostly in terms of 3D games. There are some great programmers, so they program and make all those wonderful "better than Sonic Team" engines without creating stages. Level designers do mods and levels to Sonic World instead of new games. Writers write, artists create, musicians make music. All separately and there are not many people that do a little bit of everything to make a unique experience or pull together a team.

Actually this problem is the reason why I'm making my own 3D fangame. To not just complain but do something with it. Are there reused assets? Sure, but in different context and mixed with some other freely available resources. Unity terrain is abused. Music is all from other games with some Creative Commons sprinkled in (and few original songs from a friend which I initially didn't plan). After all, I do a fangame instead of original game to not bother with creating all that stuff. But there will be a story, original areas and focus on giving it a sense of identity with the theme of being stranded and actually finishing it instead of doing 1 rushed demo. I'm sure it won't be "better than Sega", but I want to give example that something original can be done without original assets, to make less people do Emerald Coast port number 12313243 because Mania in 3D but to focus on game's own identity. Even if it's not "better than Sega" or even "better than Sega at its worst".

More or less if it's an original story or has a story, it most likely will stick out somehow. This is why I have soft spot to projects like Sonic Unfinished that took a really funny and well animated movie made by BalenaProductions and added levels to it or Sonic Overcharged where there is an edgy Classic Sonic-like new hedgehog and Sonic and Tails have sweet talk over radio or Sonic Resistance rolls with concept of war from Forces but actually uses the concept with injured NPC and soldiers guarding streets (I can't wait for full version of this one). Are demos of those games better than Sega? I don't think so, but they sure have a sense of identity. And I love them for that and I want to see more of games like that. Those have real potential to be "better than Sega" after enough polish.
 

Jayson Jean

Jayson Jean Channel
Apr 22, 2019
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I love your reply and the fact that you're open about your soft spot for many fangames. But my soft spot is behind critical judgement, meaning I judge & review(not officially yet) the fangames I've observed. While I still hold the statment that fangames can't be on the same level as offical games, surprising I believe fangames should be judge as a standalone games itself. I see fangames as REAL games, a actual product that someone is developing towards the public.
 
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WhiskerMidi

The Sad Otter Man
Sep 13, 2019
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Westlouia
I find that the best fangames tend to be better than the best official games because they take features from years ago and refine them, taking advantage of several decades of hindsight.

It depends on the series, though. I find that the best-of-the-best of Sonic The Hedgehog fangames tend to be more enjoyable than the mainline Sonic releases on console because the fangames are smaller-scale releases given plenty of time while the official games are larger-scale releases that have to deal with absurd amounts of crunch and budget constraints on top of the fact that the developers of the main-games are just collecting a paycheck and don't typically have a whole lot of passion for the franchise. Series like Mario or Zelda, on the other hand, are given massive budgets and years of time to polish and perfect, so the main games are usually more engaging to play than the fanmade ones, not that there aren't some stand-out Mario fangames.

I think the quality of fangames is all about scope. It seems like fangames that try to outdo the original works and be the "true, better sequel" tend to fall flat on their face (i.e. Hunt Down the Freeman) while fangames that "know what they are" fare a little better, since there are fewer variables at play.
 

Perfect Chaos Zero

Green Hill Zone
Apr 26, 2017
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Now let's hold on a second. That's a dangerous line of thinking anyway. Fan games aren't better than the official games, we're not here to "replace" SEGA's works in any sense. The fact is, fan games exist because of the official titles, often using the same ideas and even assets from them in their creation. Saying fan games are "better", especially when SEGA's already done half work and all of the pioneering for you is hubris and folly. Not to mention it encourages a toxicity that would not mesh well with SEGA's graciousness in allowing this community to thrive all these years. As far as the phrase "Fan games are better than official titles", just "No", every time. That shouldn't even be the topic of the conversation in the first place to begin with.
 

Greedy_Raider

Marble Zone
Sep 7, 2018
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Anyone who truly thinks that fan games can be better than an official game is crazy, the amount of work even to make a half baked game (like forces) is insane, we are not only talking game-play, which for me is the part they are lacking, Sonic 3d games are an incredible feat of engineering and optimization, we have stages that can be over 10 kilometers with stunning detailed geometry ,illumination and ambient occlusion, just THAT by it self is a feat that no fan game will ever achieve, but having THAT running on potatoes , that's even more incredible.

Sonic Team might not be doing an stellar job into making great games game-play or story wise, but the levels visual and the quality of the overall games are REALLY good.

Well my final point is, fan games have teams of 1-10 people (mostly 1 or 2 really!) and a financial investment of almots always 0$. You cant beat a team of 100 with money to spare on quality assets and software, yeah this is NOT required to make something incredible, but damn it helps!
 

Perfect Chaos Zero

Green Hill Zone
Apr 26, 2017
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Greedy is hitting the nail on the head. It's also important to mention that even the "bad" Sonic games that SEGA makes are significant to fan gamers. The only reason us amateurs can come up with ideas on how to improve on Sonic's game play is because SEGA already has tried and refined so many ideas. Even if we make attempts at creating things we may think are a better way to approach things or perhaps to correct what we personally think are "issues" or "mistakes" with gameplay in the official games, we can only do that because we are literally building off of the work and pioneering SEGA did in the official titles anyway. So even IF one thinks they've come up with a "better alternative" for say, Sonic's movement mechanics? A person is only able to do that by building off of what SEGA did, their work is what enables one to figure out whatever it is they think they figured out. That doesn't make one's stuff better than SEGA's in any sort of way, it just means they're standing on their shoulders for a minute.

A fan gamer should be thankful for what SEGA's done beforehand to give them that boost, recognize who took all the risks trying out so many things for a fan gamer to even be able to even conceive of whatever it is they may be making. Thinking you or someone else's fan project is better than the official stuff and going around saying so, is exactly how you get fan games issued with a DMCA/Cease and Desist order. Be respectful, don't talk smack, you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes, never antagonize the official developers of stuff like this when you're making fan projects by saying you're "better". It damages the community and puts the entire fan game scene at risk when you say stupid stuff like that. So yes, fan games are NOT better than the official titles. It isn't even a notion that should be suggested.
 
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Hoohee

Press Start Screen
Dec 24, 2018
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Limiting this to 2-D fangames, at this point I think there are at least some that exceed at least some of the official 2-D Sonic games. Note, though, that in the era those official games were made, game development teams were much smaller and so it isn't too hard for a group of fans these days to put in a similar amount of effort; particularly since the Internet allows people to locate each other and find teammates with the right skills.

Broadening it to include 3-D Sonic games as well, the claim that fangames can't possibly be better than official games because those official games have so much more time, effort, and original content put into them--as a result of team size growing exponentially since the SEGA Genesis era--sounds objective enough, but here's something to consider: By that exact same logic, Sonic The Hedgehog 2006 can be deemed a superior game to Sonic The Hedgehog 1991. As I doubt many people here have that opinion, it behooves us to recall that "good" is often subjective and situational, so you really shouldn't reduce it to size alone. Thus from here, let me defend the position of people who feel that some 3D fangames are better than the official ones.

As noted above, I may not be able to declare objectively what a "good" Sonic game is, but what I can do is remind people what Sonic games were like when the series was at its most popular. They featured momentum-driven physics, speed, environments built to use those physics and that speed, point-A-to-point-B platforming, and an increasing roster of characters, but always characters that fit with the preceding points. That isn't any secret to people here, but it deserves to be restated to point out why many people find the official 3D Sonic games lacking--because they have deviated from that standard, and in many regards never actually returned.

Let's look at the physics first. While Sonic did have momentum in Sonic Adventure , I can't remember any point when building up that momentum was a challenge and failing to do meant Sonic couldn't get up a certain place--except for the Perfect Chaos fight at the end, and it felt jarring as a result. Loops in those games are infamously preceded by boost panels and sometimes movement within the loops themselves are completely automated. Other times, like in the aforementioned Sonic 2006, movement in these loops is not automated, so Sonic can just stop moving at all when on them, revealing that his momentum and speed doesn't matter at all; he just sticks to them--which is even worse. It certainly looks worse. The point is that physics in the official 3D Sonic games are an ongoing stream of hoaxes; not always very convincing ones.

Now for the other things. Sonic Adventure added three new playable characters (Amy had been playable before, but not in any Sonic platformer), and one of them was super-slow, had almost no platforming involved, and his goal was to go fishing. It's important to bare in mind my earlier point that bigger isn't always better. Sonic Adventure would be a smaller game with Big the Cat removed; many people would also consider it a better game. Sonic Adventure 2 took out the fishing, but it also shoved Tails into a mech. After Sonic 2006, SEGA started pulling out elements that fans disliked, but they also pulled out things they did like, such as Tails and Knuckles being playable in a similar manner to the way they did on SEGA Genesis. They also made the games even more automated and linear than before, and continued shoving random new gameplay gimmicks into the games to replace those they had taken out.

The reason many people continue to claim some 3-D fangames are better than the official 3-D Sonic games is that these fangames are actually trying to recreate a Sonic experience that Sega just gave up on, and they're actually succeeding at those key things. There are now multiple 3-D Sonic fangames with working momentum physics, and environments useful for testing them. There are at least a few that have Tails and Knuckles playable, quite like they did in the Genesis games. Some have even more characters, and many have fixed the problem originally posed by Big the Cat in Sonic Adventure. Finally, unlike every Sonic game made since 2006, these games are actually fully in 3-D and don't yank control away from players or force perspective to alter. All this might not comprise a compelling argument that these games are better than SEGA's if it was just a matter of some randos finding them more fun, but that's not all it is; once again, the things that these games do are what official Sonic games did back when they were better received. That might not be objectively what Sonic games should be, but it's as close as your going to get to objective, and so long as there still isn't an objective definition of what makes a good Sonic game, you really can't declare people wrong when they say one Sonic game is better than another.

I want to mention that I'm not necessarily expressing a personal opinion in any of the above. I actually don't think making every Sonic character fast and able to roll is an ideal way to give them a moveset (though not doing this does make them untenble for many levels designed for characters more like Sonic), I prefer having more buttons than the Genesis games used, I don't hate Big the Cat, and I can't say I'm one of those people who gets newly excited whenever the next 3-D Sonic fangame comes out that is just a physics demo in a sandbox. However, I also see nothing in SEGA's official (sometimes) 3-D Sonic games that makes me expect them to reach my ideal anytime soon. Fangames haven't, either, but I do genuinely think it's more likely fangames will achieve that sooner than SEGA does, if only because the fans are actually trying.
 

botebot

Green Hill Zone
Jan 5, 2020
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1
28
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This has been a issue that's really had a sense of annoyance towards me, which is the phrase "Fangames are better than anything SEGA has ever done." Which is flat out untrue. Now an argument on how the fans can have more interesting ideas for the blue blur is something for debate, but the formal isn't. Fangames are inferior for many reasons. For one is a lack of original assets. And not just fact that the assets already belong to SEGA, many fangames often reuse many assets like levels and playstyles, with virtually no sense of a proper identity, like having level ports with the same control scheme from the game it was borrowed from,or having giant level layouts full of assets and not much of a flow going on. But I think the absolute worst of this phrase is when it's aimed towards Engines, like a literal sandbox when the player just runs around testing things for about 20 minutes. Meaning that you mind more enjoyment in a sandbox, than a full fledged game?
I agree, most fangames are a bit overhyped.
 

wesker

Press Start Screen
Oct 14, 2018
1
0
6
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If you’re making a fan game better than the original then you need to swap them sprites and sell it as a clone or homage retro game lol

Making fan games I think have a few very specific purposes and that’s to show your love for something (In this case Sonic) and to pick up a new skill which is games creation and it’s infinitely more easy to learn programming a game when you don’t have to worry about all the assets or even original ideas.